10/7/2007
Answering Islam Awareness’ claim: The bible says the earth is flat
There are numerous biblical verses that say the earth is round, but I still find it interesting that Islam Awareness would propagate this mythology. Isn’t it bad enough that Islamofacists want to force the world into dhimmitude and pay the jizyah or die by the sword. I’m not sure if the jizyah is in the Koran, but killing the infidel ’smiting him by the neck’ certainly is.
As this article says, I like to stick with biblical truths instead of the trivialities of man.
A scientist or someone interested in science may be surprised to learn that, 2,200 years before men in general accepted the fact that the earth is round, the Hebrew Prophet Isaiah wrote:
Isaiah 40:22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: - King James Version
*Circle=Hebrew “chuwg” or “hhug”, means “sphere”, according to Davidson’s Concordance.
There’s also
Proverbs 8:27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: - King James Version
“When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle (chuwg or hhug for sphere) on the face of the deep.” (another translation)
Job 26:10He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end. - King James Version
He has described a circle (Hebrew-chuwg or hhug for “sphere”) on the face of the waters, at the boundary between light and darkness.” (another translation)
A scientifically inclined or interested person would probably agree with the Bible if shown
Job 26:7He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. - King James Version
This says that God is “hanging the earth upon nothing.” All scientists know that the earth is hanging in space with no visible means of support. (Reference: Davidson’s Concordance)
Scientists tell us that the universe is expanding. So…the biblical statements that God stretches out the heavens are not unscientific, but completely agree with what today’s scientists claim about the expansion of the universe! So much for the arguments on the Bible’s supposed unscientific views of the universe.
The Earth is shaped like a sphere (round) and rotates:
Isaiah 40:22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: - King James Version
That is from 746-680 BC. Also, there is
Luke 17:34-3634I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. - King James Version
From 60 AD. Luke 17:34-36 depicts Christ’s Second Coming as happening while some are asleep at night and others are working at day time activities in the field, an indication of a rotating earth with day and night at the same time. (Source-CNN report title Star Survey)
Psalms 19:4-64Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. - King James Version
The sun has an orbit of its own (there is another interpretation of this verse that suggests it is talking about how the Sun appears to rise in the East and sets in the West).
This is from about 1000 BC, but the discovery was made only recently that the sun is travelling through space at about 600,000 miles per hour, in an orbit that would take an estimated 230,000,000 years to complete. (Source - CNN report titled Star survey)
The Bible includes a number of references regarding the geophysical structure of the earth which revealed an understanding which was far ahead of common awareness. To truly appreciate the relevance of these statements, one must understand the state of existing knowledge about the earth at the time these words were written.
Although data concerning historical scientific knowledge is rare, it suggests that almost nothing was known about the earth’s oceans, atmosphere, or the structure of the earth’s shape and composition. The nations surrounding Israel believed that the earth was flat, resting on the back of elephants or turtles. There was no knowledge of lighter-than-air gases. Rain was said to be sent from the gods, lightning and thunder represented the anger of the gods. Even volcanic activity was not connected to any physical property of the earth. In sharp contrast, the biblical accounts refer to geophysical facts in clear and precise detail thousands of years before their confirmation by science. While God is sometimes seen to manifest His anger through physical means such as earthquakes–with a specific purpose in mind, the Bible makes it clear that earthquakes are not in themselves a symbol of His anger. This is a significant difference from every other religious belief of those times.
The course of trade winds:
Ecclesiastes 1:6The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. - King James Version
This was a remarkable statement given the earth’s primitive knowledge of atmospheric conditions. In Solomon’s time (Ecclesiastes was written around 935BC), there were no scientific revelations about the trade winds that move in a regular, predictable pattern around the earth. Sailors finally began mapping these winds during the age of exploration about 2000 years after this was written.
Ocean currents revealed
“…and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas.”
Psalms 8:8The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. - King James Version
The Bible infers a knowledge of ocean currents at a time when almost nothing was known about the ocean. It was not until 1845 that Matthew Fontaine Maury, inspired by this verse, began discovering and mapping the existence of ocean currents. Even today oceanography is hailed as the “last great frontier” of scientific study because so little is known about our oceans. Some people will dismiss this passage as an accidental reference, merely transposing a land-based concept (paths) to the surface of the water. Perhaps. But a closer look suggests that this verse distinctly refers to paths (currents) within the depths of the ocean, not upon its surface, as most fish do not swim on the surface.
The existence of hydrothermal springs
“Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?”
Job 38:16Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? - King James Version
God revealed the existence of freshwater springs under the ocean floor about 4000 years ago. Only in the last 20 years have scientists discovered that huge springs of heated water pour out of the ocean floor in numerous places. In 1965 scientists first theorized that such vents could exist. In the late 1970’s, oceanographers with Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute finally saw and photographed one from the deep water submersible Alvin. Until then it was impossible to travel to these depths because of the intense pressures encountered. Since then many more vents have been found. These are usually referred to as “hydrothermal vents” which are composed of steam and minerals flowing at high pressure into the sea as a result of cracks in the earth’s crust. To anyone without oceanographic knowledge they look exactly like “springs of the sea.” How did Job know about these phenomena located at such crushing depths?
Polar ice caps revealed
“From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?”
Job 38:29-3029Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it? 30The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen. - King James Version
The phrase “surface of the deep is frozen” is a very clear reference to polar ice caps found only in the farthest reaches of the north. How could someone like Job or his contemporaries, living in the area of Saudi Arabia in ancient times, have known about polar ice caps? Not even the harshest winter could have produced a frozen ocean surface in that region of the world. Some early explorers were known to have traveled north, but with no navigational aids (the compass was not invented until the seventh century AD and didn’t appear west of China until 1100AD) their efforts were futile. A Greek explorer was reported to have traveled as far north as the island of Great Britain around 1300BC. However, nothing indicates that he discovered ice floes and this is highly unlikely because he would not have made such a trip in winter.
The hydrological cycle
“He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind. Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds, how he thunders from his pavilion?” Job 36:27-2927For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof: 28Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly. 29Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle? - King James Version
“who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out over the face of the land–the LORD is his name” Amos 5:8Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name: - King James Version
This reference to evaporation is startling in its clarity and detail, and centuries ahead of its time.
Amos 9:6It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name. - King James Version
God revealed the existence of a hydrological cycle–water evaporating from the sea into the form of clouds and being dropped onto land as rain–about 3500 years before these concepts became known to scientific man. In fact, even after people understood the hydrological cycle, they believed that rain, being fresh water, came from rivers and lakes. The discovery that rain comes mostly from seawater as described in the Bible is fairly recent. In the 1600’s it was finally realized that water could evaporate as a gaseous substance. In 1676, Pierre Perrault and Edme Marriotte made a scientific breakthrough by describing the hydrologic cycle in detail. Yet the Bible described the process thousands of years earlier. [REFERENCE]
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But back to the Bible says the earth is flat claim by “Islam awareness”.
Christopher Columbus knew the earth was round, and so did the Icelanders he visited in 1482.
Eratostheses of Alexandria (c.276-c.194 B.C.), used geometry to measure the earth’s circumference, so he also knew the earth was round.
Claiming that ‘the people of the book’ are ignorant because of cherry-picked verses from the bible merely proves your ideology, not that what you claim is fact.
Quoting Bible passage citing “..the four CORNERS of the earth..” merely corresponds with what most people are aware of: the four compass points. But this doesn’t prove anything. This isn’t evidence that the Bible is “unscientific”. The next time you pick up your Nautical Almanac (surely you have one, you’re so scientific)—a scientific book–notice how it uses the same style of phenomenological language when referring to “sunrise” and “sunset”.
There is nothing unscientific about using figures of speech–poetry, really–to put a handle on an idea, making it easier to pack around. Believing the Nautical Almanac can save your life while at sea. Believing the Bible can likewise save your life, both in this age and in the one to come
Whereas in the Koran, it commands to ‘kill the unbelievers wherever you find them’, says it’s okay to lie, beat your wife, even kill your wife, rape, have slaves, have sex with your slaves, and take your victims’ belongings, which in my mind sounds like stealing. Zawahiri and Bin Laden both quote verses from the Koran as did Zarqawi and other Islamic murderers before them.
The Christian Response to the Flat-Earth Bible (Christian Response to Islam Awareness)
The Christian Bible is a scentific book
Christ is alive; he walked after he was crucified, and his disciples witnessed it. Muhammad died, and he is in his tomb today. We have the shroud of turin which proves what Christ went through before he was crucified, yet the shroud is all we have left; we have no body because He is Risen. There is the difference in all the religions - no other religion’s propheit was given life after death in the literal sense like Jesus was. Islamists think that Jesus was a prophet like Muhammad. So why, then, wasn’t Muhammad resurrected? Jesus lives; Muhammad is dead…and so are Buddha and all the rest.
“War is deceit,” said the Prophet Muhammad, according to Hadith 4:269.
And the dishonest narrative that Islamists are putting forth, like “Hitler was a Christian” (disproven; Hitler was an admirer of Islam and believed Christianity was an extension of Judaism which needed to be destroyed, reference the Mufti of Jeruselum, the muslim faction in the SS, Saddam’s Uncle who raised him was a nazi, Saddam carried Mein Kempf in his back pocket) and “The Bible says the earth is flat”-so therefore it’s ‘unscientific’ (also disproven as I’ve shown) are blatant examples the Islamists today are more than willing to take that advice to heart as they’re moving the world to Dar al-Islam from dar al-Harb. (reference) Right now, we might full well be here in the US, in Dar al-Dawa or Dar al-Amn, but the ultimate goal that Islamists have proclaimed outright is to drive the infidels into submission and for sharia law to become the ruling law in the US.
The topic of Islamic jihad is blanketed by deceivers, and they are as clever and persistent as any the world has ever seen: taking Muhammad’s dictum that “war is deceit” to the max. I have tried to expose many of these deceptions at Dhimmi Watch, but the positive reception accorded to CAIR’s loophole-laden fatwa indicates that they are still largely successful. And as long as that continues, we are all that much more at risk.-Robert Spencer
October 8th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
Noticed that you prevented comments on WideAwakes for this issue, so I thought I’d drop one here. If I was really reaching, then you wouldn’t have to block my comments. As usual, you can’t handle opposition. At least the ones you consider threatening.
First of all, we can interpret written works literally, or interpret them as we please. Richard Nixon surmises this nicely, by saying the Bible can be used to justify most prejudice. You could interpret my writings here, as PRO religion. Of course, that would be twisting my words. But you could say, I’m really commenting on the evils of Islam, when in fact, I’m commenting on the evils of ALL religion.
You stab out at the Koran (a stupid man-written, god fearing publication) for the very same dogma contained within the covers of the Holy Bible. I won’t use the word hypocrisy; because that implies an awareness of your own beliefs. After reading the following statements, I believe that you are simply brainwashed, and don’t even comprehend the integral idiocy of both the Arabic and Western holy books. They’re both one and the same Cao. How can you not see that. One is no more morale than the other, in its demands of murder, rape, slave ownership, incest ad nauseam.
Cao, you said:
“Whereas in the Koran, it commands to ‘kill the unbelievers wherever you find them’, says it’s okay to lie, beat your wife, even kill your wife, rape, have slaves, have sex with your slaves, and take your victims’ belongings, which in my mind sounds like stealing.”
The Holy Bible on murder:
* Exodus 35:2 – ” For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.”
Well, there goes the American economy! Actually, most of Western Civilization. God I love holydays!
* Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.”
Adios to all teenagers!
* Leviticus 20:13 – “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
KILL the homo-oxuals!
* Deuteronomy 25:11-12 – “If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.”
Woah! That’s just whack. That’s a retarded notion from a very, primitive human and imperfect book!
* Deuteronomy 20:10-16 – “When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.”
That explains the war-monger mentality of the right.
* Isaiah 13:13-16 – “Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. Like a hunted gazelle, like sheep without a shepherd, each will return to his own people, each will flee to his native land. Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.”
Such a nice, rapist,
* Numbers 31:14-18 – “Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
* 1 Chronicles 21 1:15 - Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. So David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, “Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are.” But Joab replied, “May the LORD multiply his troops a hundred times over. My lord the king, are they not all my lord’s subjects? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he bring guilt on Israel?” The king’s word, however, overruled Joab; so Joab left and went throughout Israel and then came back to Jerusalem. Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah. But Joab did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, because the king’s command was repulsive to him. This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished Israel. Then David said to God, “I have sinned greatly by doing this. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.” The LORD said to Gad, David’s seer, “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’ ” So Gad went to David and said to him, “This is what the LORD says: ‘Take your choice: three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD -days of plague in the land, with the angel of the LORD ravaging every part of Israel.’ Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me.” David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men.” So the LORD sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the LORD was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
Exodus 21:20-21 – “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.”
So there you have it folks… these are just the verses I could be bothered finding. The Koran and the Bible are effectively one and the same in the evil of their materials. Fortunately, the west tends to ignore much of the bible, and doesn’t take it literally. As for the Koran… But don’t kid yourself. The materials contained therein are practically one and the same. Kill unbelievers. Kill those who disobey. Kill those who worship other gods. Rape is admissible. Beating of slaves is admissible. Need I say more? Bible, Koran, Koran, Bible. Same shiite, same smell!
Oh, and by the way, to those of you who believe that the laws of the old covenant no longer come to pass… Well file your theological beliefs under hypocrisy, because as Jesus said himself in Matthew 5:17-19 – “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called LEAST in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called GREAT in the kingdom of heaven.”
So don’t go shaving, wearing threads of differing kinds, eating shellfish, or avoid killing those who work on the Sabath!
October 9th, 2007 at 4:25 am
Huh.
More atheist cut and paste; while ignoring everything that I previously wrote. Is this a pissing contest or what? I put up my explanations, and you put up your diatribes in response, not even bothering to address my points.
The old testament is not followed any more…but Christ DID say that the ten commandments should be followed. Much of what is written in the new testament negates the verses you quote there. Can you honestly cite a newspaper article that shows any example where Christians or Jews murdered someone for working on the sabbath? Or had slaves? Even the Koran says it’s okay to have slaves…rape them, etc. Much of what is commanded in the Koran is what the terrorists follow, but you don’t see Christians rioting about cartoons…or about ‘art’ that has a cross in a glass of urine…or muslims wrecking churches or pissing on Christ’s birthplace.
The same goes for most of the other stuff that you quoted, but I will attempt to take them one at a time later.
Even Orthodox Jews do not follow the rules of sacrifice for atonement in the old testament, either, because Jesus was the final sacrifice. It’s interesting that by their own behavior they’ve acknowledged that Christ was the messiah.
There were 2,097 spam comments and trackbacks in my spam bucket this morning and no comments of yours were among them.
I will address this later, I’m pressed for time this morning. Suffice it to say; I will address this–and; I never ‘prevent’ discussion at TWA. When I try to do that, guys like Richard Nixon and Xformed stand up for the trolls that I would have banned.
But the exchanges on this have not been discussions…they’ve been ‘***-for-tat’ - I respond, and then you people come up with something else, not even acknowledging that I had a point.
You really have to learn what the term ‘discussion’ really means, otherwise the individual that you’re harrassing will eventually put her foot down.
October 9th, 2007 at 5:36 am
OK, I noticed that old saw about “taking the Bible literally.” First, let’s get this out of the way: when Christians and Jews take the Bible literally, we mean “naturally.” Therefore, when the Bible presents an historical passage, we read it as history; when it presents a poetic passage, we read it as poetry; and so on. When the Bible says “God stretched out His arm,” we know that, since God is a Spirit, this is a metaphor the Bible uses so that we - as imperfect, corporeal beings - have something we can relate to and understand the meaning God is trying to communicate.
OK, ’nuff said there for the moment.
Now, we do have a “problem” with the Law. However, there are two types of Law - ceremonial and moral. A major part of the Torah is actually taken up by ceremonial laws and their implications - how sacrifices are to be chosen, how they are to be offered, what the High Priest’s clothing is supposed to look like, how you’re supposed to ritually cleanse yourself, etc.
When Jesus was here on earth, He said, “I came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it.” Each and every sacrifice the Jews made prior to Christ’s death on the cross pointed to His sacrifice. Each lamb, each bull, each bird displayed the awful consequence of sin: the death penalty - for “without blood, there is no remission of sin,” and “the life is in the blood.”
Now, one aspect of ceremonial Law was to keep the Jews separate and holy people. All of their customs, all of their lives were to be a visible proof of the holiness of God. Now, God is so pure that He cannot even look upon sin, and so His people had to be pure themselves (no, of course the Jews weren’t - neither are we Christians - that’s not the issue at the moment). When sin entered the nation of Israel, therefore, they had to deal with it completely, which is one of the reasons for what we perceive as very harsh and unreasonable rules and consequences. (However, our perception says more to the fact that we are sinful people who prefer to lower the bar to our level, rather than acknowledge and strive for God’s requirement of perfection.)
Now, when Jesus died on the Cross as the perfect, ultimate sacrifice, He did so after living a life of absolute, complete, and perfect obedience to the Law in all its aspects. He fulfilled the Law. If He had failed in just one minor point, we would not be having this conversation today - Jesus would have been just another man, and not our sinless sacrifice. Thus, in His perfect life, He fulfilled all the Old Testament Law, ceremonial and moral.
So the ceremonial Law passed away - and I just read a very interesting item in Lee Strobel’s newest book, the Case for the Real Jesus in which the interviewee says that there is historical evidence that, before the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction o the Temple in 70AD, for about 40 years the sign that the sacrifices offered were accepted did not happen, whereas prior to Jesus’ crucifixion, they had. Now I’m not sure what this sign was, and I need to do some more research on this, but it is an intriguing idea. However, it is apparently an historical item which supports the doctrine that when Jesus called out “It is finished!” and died on the Cross, He did away with - fulfilled - the ceremonial Law.
Today, Christians look at the ceremonial Law as a picture of God’s holiness. As God is holy, so He calls His people to be holy, and the ceremonial Law, at the very least, shows us how very serious God is about this. But God wants heart service, “worship in spirit and in truth,” not just the religious trappings of outward obedience and inward rebellion. Therefore, that ceremonial Law reminds us to live lives of purity, *AND* that we may not approach God willy-nilly with whatever method “feeeeeels” right to us. God is holy and awesome; He is high and lifted up, exalted in the Heavens. Yes, His people may come boldly before the Throne, but they may not come disrespectfully. The two rules of prayer: 1) remember who you aren’t and 2) remember who He is.
All right, I’ve dealt with the ceremonial Law - however briefly; BOOKS have been written about this aspect of theology - so what about the MORAL Law? Since Jesus fulfilled the Law, doesn’t that pass away, too?
Well, no, of course not! While the ceremonial Law was a picture and system to impress upon us the seriousness of sin, the need for purity, and how to worship, the MORAL Law is a reflection of God’s very character - which He cannot change. He Himself is eternal, and thus His attributes and the moral Laws which come from those attributes are eternal.
(As an aside, there are many times when I am very comforted because of the things God cannot do - He cannot lie, He cannot forget or break His promises, etc.)
And now I’m going to stop, because I have to get ready for the day and take my child to school. I’ll stop by later and see how things develop.
But Cao, I would remind you of this old saw, “Never try to teach a pig to sing: it’s a waste of time for you, and it annoys the pig.”
– Kat
October 9th, 2007 at 6:13 am
I was getting ready to comment but Kat put any efforts I may have made to shame. Way to go Kat. I am humbled by your faith and ability to enunciate it.
October 9th, 2007 at 6:25 am
Nice leftist moral equivalence, Wideaparts. Since you so truly believe that Islam and Christianity are one and the same, I suggest you head to Iran or Saudi Arabia, renounce any other citizenships, and bash Mohammed on the streetcorner. If the two religions are the same, you will be as safe as if you were to go on National TV in America and say, “Suck it Jesus.” Go ahead, I dare you.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Kat: That was a wonderful explaination of the “The Law” and how Christ’s sacrificed changed and didn’t change some things. Thank you for sharing as it was interesting to read and answers things I have wondered about before. I really liked the idea of the things God can’t do, as they are indeed comforting, but along with the “Can Dos”; Bless, Love, Forgive and Transform… I give thanks that our God is truly great and God does change hearts and lives. Thanks Kat, that was a great read to start my day.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:21 am
Wideaparts: Since the death of Christ brought “His Will and Testament” or “The New Testament” into effect for “Christians”, that was Christs purpose in coming. So I would challenge you to “cut and paste” New Testament scripture to support your claims!
I don’t know about any other Christians, but I live by the “New Testament” and my faith centers on what Christ had to say.
October 9th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Hark! What light through yonder window breaks! It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
Did Shakespeare think that a woman could be a burning mass of gases millions of miles away?
Truly the one dimensional thinker is missing a lot in his one dimensional world if he only thinks everything that is written is completely literal…
October 9th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
Why, ladies and gentlemen, I thank you for your very kind compliments. God is, indeed, very gracious - because I was writing that very early in the morning and with NO coffee
And HA-Mom, yes - the things that God CAN do are incredibly wonderful, too. If I may impose on Cao, I’ve been reading Ephesians the past week or so, and have posts here and here, which you may find edifying. The Holy God, the Living God, is also the God of all grace, and if you come to Him in humility and repentance, He can save out of the very abyss of sin!
October 9th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
God is Great…and thanks for commenting, Kat, I love reading your posts on this subject in particular.
It is difficult to talk with someone who is so determined NOT to listen….this person is missing out on a lot with that attitude.
October 9th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Cao, the thing I always try to remember is that “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Unregenerate people cannot really understand or truly appreciate the things of God. It takes the indwelling of the Spirit to have the Bible come alive as you read it. Certainly, the beauty and wisdom of God’s words will move the unsaved - but unless His Spirit comes down for the conviction of sin and the regeneration of the soul, they are without hope.
None of us know who or what God will use to drive that wedge so that the Spirit enters and enables a person to respond in joy and gratitude to the offer of salvation. We do not know who He has planned to bring into His family.
So, “how can I keep from singing”? This miraculous grace and love which has been poured out into my life overflows - as it ought - so that I am honored to proclaim the Gospel of Salvation. It is, after all, the Call He laid upon us all: to proclaim the Gospel to the ends of the earth, and make disciples of all men.
Our hearts should be filled with pity for the lost. While we need to uphold God’s standards, we also need to remember that the godly kindness, love and instruction we give to them may be all they have in eternity.
October 13th, 2007 at 7:40 am
Those are beautiful words, but I have a hard time responding to them with love and understanding when they are hateful vicious nazi-like trolls. I’d rather come back at them with a clue bat…
Some of these people would kill us for simply believing what we believe…and that is not something to forgive; that is something to stand up against. Let God do the forgiving; I want to survive and hold onto our precious 1st amendment rights; which they seem determined to squelch, just like they did in Nazi Germany.
October 13th, 2007 at 10:25 am
I am so proud to know that such dear, loving people exist and call themselves part of my American family. But I too have a hard time understanding how anyone can bow down to a God who would expect them to kill and butcher those who disagree. In Christianity, we have a savior who tells us to love our enemies and to help them see the truth by how we live, as an example. I could not follow a God who was so different from the one Jesus has helped us get closer to. I do not understand, and like Cao, I feel the need to react like a protecting warrior than a forgiving, Christlike entity.
I know I am commanded to forgive, but I don’t know of anywhere where I am commanded to “give up and lay down without a fight”.
January 13th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
The Bible and Self Defense
Psalms 144:1A Psalm of David. Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: - King James Version
Christ not only respected the soldier, but told the disciples to arm themselves for self defense.
Defending ourselves from the evil forces of our age is our responsibility as Christians–we should not run from it or use pacifism as an excuse to lay our necks on the chopping block.