You can see a 1 hour film here. It’s in quicktime format, and it’s very explicit and violent. This is what Saddam, that nice guy, an admirer of Stalin, whose Uncle taught him all the nuances of what being Nazi and a part of the Muslim brotherhood…means. See it here, up close and personal. Perhaps you haven’t ever seen images like this from Saddam’s regime, just dried up bones dug up from his mass graves. Well these are living breathing people. His Iraqi brothers and sisters. This is a compilation of some of the cruelest things I’ve never imagined. But I think after people are wailing and crying over Abu Ghraib atrocities, and mis-treatment of the Koran at Gitmo, they ought to get a look at what atrocities really are, and get a reality check.
This is what the communists at the frogblog are rooting for, not freedom for the Iraqi people, not 80% reduction in violence since the Americans have been there, no they root for a fascist dictator: Saddam Hussein, who wrought more anguish on his fellow Iraqis than is imaginable. This is the stuff that westerners have no idea goes on in the world. These are true “civil rights violations”. This is what Amnesty International only whimpered about. Of course, it was not in that organization’s power to stop it; nor do I think stopping it was their intention.
I don’t think a single American Abu Ghraib incident even remotely compares to this. Not even remotely.
From the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research. Note: This is an extremely graphic and gruesome video and is not suitable for children. You can download it from their website. If it eats enough of my bandwidth, I’m going to have to remove it and just ask that you download it from there.
God almighty, Cao. I don’t think those images are soon going to leave my mind.
Still, we don’t realize how easy we have it here… and how unbelievably easy the detainees at Gitmo have it, for Christ’s sake!
Sorr about that, TMH. I think I put a warning there…this is serious stuff, and I don’t think the left realizes what they’re doing when they oppose the war and exactly who the people are that we’re dealing with. Torture to us consists of not picking up a Koran with white gloves on, or naked Iraqis stacked up for a picture. Torture to these people is horrific, it’s sickening and serious, and meant to get results. The left is trying to tie one hand behind our backs and what I’m trying to convey is–what a dangerous thing that is for our boys in the field, and people who are working in humanitarian causes (including women) in Iraq. The Baathists who are being trained in Yemen to go back and fight our guys are remnants of Saddam’s old regime, and these are the atrocities they commit and and find acceptable. These are documented FACTS, not fiction like photoshopped pictures at the Democratic Underground.
These images are sad and sick! They will stick in my mind. Saddam truly was a monster. He will pay!
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War – it’s not a pretty sight, is it? Yet, the Lefties keep screaming it’s all about the oil.
No; it’s not anything closely related to oil — we can get that from other sources that are closer to home.
I’m curious how the DEMOCRAPPERS would feel if we had to fight these people on our own soil; what would they scream about, should these images be them or their own family members?
Thank God, that lying idiot John HANOI FONDA Skerry didn’t make it to the White House — fighting them here would most likely have become a reality.
A blog fellow of mine recently said that he fully expects American cities to look exactly like Beruit within a generation or so. I won’t be around then, but I pray he is wrong. The people who do the kinds of things shown above, whether they participate in it or simply support it in the name of Allah, are so far removed from the “American dream” that it defies logic why they were ever permitted to migrate here.
Saddam was a pig, and we did the right thing in removing him; but the mindset prevails among these people who profess the so-called religion of peace. We should rid ourselves of bad people if for no other reason than that they have no redeeming value.
Where I am frustrated is that there are so many (really, too many) Americans who either think the US government is the “bad guy,” or that dealing with terror somehow infringes upon the rights of Muslims. How “short-sighted,” and stupid can people be? When the ACLU and CCR oppose US efforts to destroy these terrorists, they in fact encourage terrorist activity. Terrorists are BAD, and so are those who encourage them.
Without comment, these are truly horrendous acts. Those cultures that engender these behaviors need to be stopped. And not everyone on the “left” or of a “liberal” bent believes that the prisoners held as terrorists are being harshly treated in comparison to what goes on all over the world.
Still, if we are better than this, and I think we are, we must try to prevent these atrocities from occuring in our names. If our government condones these acts through their support of regimes that commit them, aren’t we somewhat culpable too?
Yes, Saddam was a thug, yes we were right to bring him down. We should be doing this to all similar regimes too. But we need to do it in a way that is honorable and truthful and transparent. That is what those with reason, whichever side they are on, should be asking for.
BTW- I think the whole Koran situation was much ado about nothing and Abu Ghraib was simply a command structure gone awry. That said, these actions do stain all of us, fairly or not.
Ken, come on. “we must try to prevent these atrocities from occuring in our names”
Are you a total liar, or are you that dumb? The US government IS NOT DOING THESE THINGS! To even imply that we might is simply outrageous.
And No, Ken, saying that Abu Grab “stained us” in any comparison to these horrible monsters is stupid and wrong. Ken, you have serious issues with reality, or you simply honestly, totally, hate America.
And Cao — remember how outraged everyone was over Saddam in his underpants? I’d like to grab some of these pictures, staple them to a 2×4, and hit those people in the head with them next time they compain about him appearing in his drawers. I want to know why he’s still alive.
Ken, you are correct; Abu Ghraib was a disgrace, and I am glad that those responsible are being investigated and punished. Bad things do happen — but it is not as if the US ignored it or tried to hide it. At the same time, the presumption by some (and the 4th estate) that our institutions are corrupt because of these aberrant incidents is illogical. In point of fact, there is much harm being done to innocent people in the name of Allah, and so I wonder, “Why is there no outrage against that?”
I certainly do not advocate nor condone intentional “mishandling” of other people’s religious articles, but even if guards handled the Koran without gloves, how does that stand up against the Saudis shredding bibles or executing practicing Christians? So it seems to me that this is playing out as a very one-sided issue. How convenient it is to criticize Americans over relatively “little things,” when in fact there are much larger, more horrendous, completely uncivilized behaviors by our “so-called” friends in the Arab states that get no press attention.
It is fitting and proper that Americans debate issues among themselves. That is the nature of democratic societies. My gripe is that too many people are forming conclusions based on erroneous facts, half-truths, and hearsay evidence. There is plenty of room in the USA for republicans, democrats, libertarians; there is perhaps much that moderates of all parties share in common. But before we can get to that point, we have to dispense with the cheap shots and begin looking at this dangerous world realistically.
Those pictures say it all! It is sad to see how late we acted to save these people from a holocaust happening right before their very eyes!
And Amnesty International accuses the US of “crimes against humanity?” What about China’s abuses? What about North Korea? Even Iran? When are they going to take the scales off their eyeballs and view the world as it is, not through some distorted 3-d multi-colored plastic glass lens!
“A blog fellow of mine recently said that he fully expects American cities to look exactly like Beruit within a generation or so. I won’t be around then, but I pray he is wrong.”
Amen, Bro — many of us agree with you and your friend; like you, I hope I’m no longer in this screwed-up world to see that!
I’d like to know what American atrocities have been committed against Iraqis that anywhere near compares to these. Nobody that I’m aware of had their tongues cut out with a razor, nobody that I’m aware of had their hands dissolved in acid, or were dragged through gravel and then dumped into raw sewage so that infection would set in (as Uday did to the Iraqi atheletes),
or had their ears cut off, or hands or feet cut off, or any number of other incredible methods of torture like flogging or falaqua. Some of this still happens under sharia law in countries like Yemen and Iran, it’s simply how they treat the infidel, or people they accuse of conspiring with them, people who oppose them, or who simply displease them.
Ogre-
Once again pulling out that old “You must hate America” debating tactic. Nicely done…you’ve sure put me in my place.
Outrageous to imply that Americans may commit atrocities? Open your daily newspaper and you’re sure to find that even the good ole’ americans have plenty to be ashamed of, not least of which is our treatment of each other. Hooligans and brutes you say? Indeed, but the capacity is in us and it does come out.
A stain is something that others can see clearly, Ogre, so yes, we are all stained by outrageous acts done in the name of America. Every Muslim in the world does not behead those they disagree with either, but I’m sure you’ll argue that point as well.
If you read between the lines, something I’m sure you can do, you’ll note that my comment was not one in defense of those acts, but simply to say that our outrage should be against anyone who commits awful crimes, regardless of where they are born or who their chosen god is.
If this is the maximum depth of your thought process, you are aptly named, Ogre.
Mustang- I don’t think that my implication was that “all American policy is bad because we had bad things happen.” naturally, governmental policy can’t control all people’s actions, nor should they. But the way others view us is through our most publicized errors, just as that is how we view them. This is my point.
At least you can hold a debate-conversation while recognizing that all ideas don’t have to be narrowly interpreted. Thanks for that. A little truth does go a long way, but when it becomes used simply for propaganda or to bolster a hateful opinion, it is of little use to anyone.
I think it really comes down to the vast differences in what “we” (well, not really all of us) call atrocities, and what the real atrocities are – and how the atrocities are punished (whether by being removed from power by someone else or punished by your own people for doing wrong) …
When only the bad news is put forth, one thinks it is all bad … when it is honestly balanced/unbiased with good news, the truth can shine … perception frequently trumps reality, and when the lives of our soldiers are LITERALLY at risk serious thought needs to go into how the “news” (and I use that term loosely) is presented.
NOTE – I am not saying we need to, or should, hide the truth … quite the opposite! It amazes me how these are lost on so many …
/TJ
Yes, Ken, you have proven my point. When you compare making someone wear underwear with beheadings and chopping off of hands, you are indeed disturbed.
YOU are saying that what America did in Abu Grab is the same as what Saddam did, and we should be just as outraged. The only person who would say that is one who wants to blame America for anything they can.
I expect we’ll see many more of these kinds of pictures during Saddam’s trial. But, except for a day or two, our mainstream media will most likely ignore them and the Arab media (except for in Iraq) will ignore them completely. I wish we were beaming them in to Arab households. In this day and age, we should be on top of this technology.
Gee Cao-
The only comments about underwear that I see are from you and Ogre. Obviously no point here, but it has been another telling trip into the land of “let’s not read what he writes, let’s pretend he said something else and attack that.”
Thanks boys and girls. It’s been real.
No, Ken, you complained in the most general of terms and then complained about the examples we brought up to illustrate our point….that the REAL atrocities aren’t even being discussed in the media, but ridiculous things like the Koran flushing incident instead are being focused upon.
Seems to me that you just don’t want to face up to plain simple facts. And that’s ok if you want to live in a dreamworld, but this is a serious fight we’re in and it’s ridiculous for the media to be harping on things that in the big picture, don’t really count for much. We should turn our attention to the REAL issues in this thing, and what the definition of REAL torture is (which Americans don’t seem to know much about).
These are just examples of of what you didn’t acknowledge, Ken, the supposed “mist-treatment” of a horrible murdering dictator, which I guess according to western sensibilities, means being photographed in his undewear–because in “prison” he gets three squares a day, a fluffy pillow, and full-air conditioning. Plus, “He can exercise in a 4,300-square-foot back yard while razor wire keeps out would-be attackers. He tends a small garden in a nearby courtyard.
Al Jazeera didn’t post the pictures because they were “demeaning to Iraqis”. I guess posting videos of the beheadings of Americans and other foreigners is considered “motivational”?
Why does the world see photos of U.S. interrogators using dogs to scare prisoners at Abu Ghraib, but not the footage of Saddam’s prisoners getting fed – alive – to Doberman pinschers on Saddam’s watch?
Maybe Saddam’s tortures, like al-Qaida’s, are so horrible that they’re unbearable to watch, almost too atrocious to describe in words.
But the result of this, is that the media’s unbalanced coverage is worse than creating moral equivalence between Saddam’s tortures and prisoner abuse by U.S. troops. It’s that we do far more to highlight our own wrongdoings precisely because they are less appalling. …
We highlight U.S. prisoner abuse because the photos aren’t too offensive to show. We downplay Saddam’s abuse precisely because it’s far worse – so we can’t use the photos. And that sets the stage for remarks like Sen. Ted Kennedy’s claim that Saddam’s torture chambers have reopened under ‘U.S. management.’
Although when you watch things like the history channel’s “The Horrors of Hussein,†“Saddam Hussein: The Butcher of Baghdad,†and “The Sons of Saddam,†it leaves very little room for doubt or speculation as to who exactly has committed “crimes against humanity”. It’s certainly not the American government.
“the definition of REAL torture is (which Americans don’t seem to know much about).
You’re correct there – apparently, Ken and perhaps others, don’t know about the REAL torture many ‘Nam Vets suffered; talk about living in a dreamworld, if one doesn’t believe it was brutal and never happened, just because photos and videos weren’t on display for the world to look at!:evil:
“Why does the world see photos of U.S. interrogators using dogs to scare prisoners at Abu Ghraib, but not the footage of Saddam’s prisoners getting fed – alive – to Doberman pinschers on Saddam’s watch?”
Simple – it’s called “Hatred Toward All Americans” and is nothing more than a typical Communist Propoganda Program to stir up anger within our own country … un-frigging believeable, that people actually think the news media spews out the truth about war and torture.