I’ve had many lefties come over here screaming bloody murder about the statements I’ve made about 9/11 bombers and Salman Pak.
American Airlines #77
Boeing 757
8:10 am departed Washington Dulles for Los Angeles
9:39 am crashed into the Pentagon
1) Khalid Al-Midhar – Possible residence (s) were: San Diego, California and New York, New York; Visa Status: B-1 Visa, but B-2 Visa had expired.
2) Majed Moqed – No information available.
3) Nawaq Alhamzi – Possible residence (s) were: Fort Lee, New Jersey and Wayne, New Jersey and San Diego, California.
4) Salem Alhamzi – Possible residence (s) were : Fort Lee, New Jersey, and Wayne, New Jersey.
5) Hani Hanjour – Possible residence (s) were: Phoenix, Arizona and San Diego, California. Believed to be a pilot.
American Airlines #11
Boeing 767
7:45 am departed Boston for Los Angeles
8:45 am crashed into North Tower of the World Trade Center
1) Satam Al Suqami – Date of birth used: June 28, 1976; Last known address: United Arab Emirates.
2) Waleed M. Alshehri – Dates of birth used: September 13, 1974/January 1, 1976/ March 3, 1976/ July 8, 1977/ December 20, 1978/ May 11, 1979/ November 5, 1979; Possible residence (s) were : Hollywood, Florida/ Orlando, Florida/ Daytona Beach, Florida; Believed to be a pilot.
3) Wail Alshehri – Date of birth used: July 31, 1973; Possible residence (s) were: Hollywood, Florida, and Newton, Massachusetts; Believed to be a pilot.
4) Mohamed Atta – Date of birth used: September 1, 1968; Possible residence (s) were: Hollywood, Florida/ Coral Springs, Florida/ Hamburg, Germany; Believed to be a pilot.
5) Abdulaziz Alomari – Date of birth used: December 24, 1972 and May 28, 1979; Possible residence was: Hollywood, Florida; Believed to be a pilot.
United Airlines #175
Boeing 767
7:58 am departed Boston for Los Angeles
9:05 am crashed into South Tower of the World Trade Center
1) Marwan Al-Shehhi – Date of birth used: May 9, 1978; Possible residence was: Hollywood, Florida; Visa Status: B-2 Visa; Believed to be a pilot.
2) Fayez Ahmed – Possible residence was: Delray Beach, Florida.
3) Ahmed Alghamdi – Possible residence was: Delray Beach, Florida.
4) Hamza Alghamdi – Possible residence was: Delray Beach, Florida.
5) Mohald Alshehri – Possible residence was: Delray Beach, Florida.
United Airlines #93
Boeing 757
8:01 am departed Newark, New Jersey, for San Francisco
10:10 am crashed in Stony Creek Township, Pennsylvania
1) Saeed Alghamdi – Possible residence was: Delray Beach, Florida.
2) Ahmed Alhaznawi – Date of birth used: October 11, 1980; Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida.
3) Ahmed Alnami – Possible residence was: Delray Beach, Florida.
4) Ziad Jarrahi – Believed to be a pilot.
According to Riadh Abdallah, a lieutenant general in Saddam’s Republican Guard, “SADDAM HUSSEIN IS THE FATHER OR GRANDFATHER OF ALL TERRORISTS” (“The Connection: How al Qaeda’s Collaboration with Saddam Hussein Has Endangered America,” by Stephen F. Hays, p. 93). He definitely knew.
Two known Iraqi terrorist training camps were at Lake Tharthar and Salman Pak. The Salman Pak camp was kept very secret from the Western world, including the United States. It specialized in exporting terrorism to the rest of the world, said Sabah Khodada, a former captain in the Iraqi army who was interviewed by the New York Times on Oct. 14, 2001.
A Mukhabarat colonel (Iraqi Intelligence) had crossed the border through Kurdistan and was ready to defect. The officer – codenamed Abu Zeinab – had extraordinary information about terrorist training in Iraq. In a safe house in Ankara, two London-based activists took down Zeinab’s story. He had worked at a site which was already well known – Salman Pak, a large camp on a peninsular formed by a loop of the Tigris river south of Baghdad.
However, what Zeinab had to say about the southern part of the camp was new. There, he said, separated from the rest of the facilities by a razor-wire fence, was a barracks used to house Islamic radicals, many of them Saudis from bin Laden’s Wahhabi sect, but also Egyptians, Yemenis, and other non-Iraqi Arabs.
Unlike the other parts of Salman Pak, Zeinab said the foreigners’ camp was controlled directly by Saddam Hussein. In a telephone interview with The Observer, Zeinab described the culture clash which took place when secular Baathists tried to train fundamentalists:
‘It was a nightmare! A very strange experience. These guys would stop and insist on praying to Allah five times a day when we had training to do. The instructors wouldn’t get home till late at night, just because of all this praying.’
Asked whether he believed the foreigners’ camp had trained members of al-Qaeda, Zeinab said: ‘All I can say is that we had no structure to take on these people inside the regime. The camp was for organisations based abroad.’ One of the highlights of the six-month curriculum was training to hijack aircraft using only knives or bare hands. According to Zeinab, women were also trained in these techniques. Like the 11 September hijackers, the students worked in groups of four or five.
Captain Sabah Khodad worked at Salman Pak in 1994-5. In an interiew with The Observer, he echoed Zeinab’s claims: ‘The foreigners’ training includes assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking. They were strictly separated from the rest of us. To hijack planes they were taught to use small knives. The method used on 11 September perfectly coincides with the training I saw at the camp. When I saw the twin towers attack, the first thought that came into my head was, “this has been done by graduates of Salman Pak”.’
Terrorists from many Arab countries were trained at these camps to kidnap people, hijack airplanes, buses and trains, and carry out many other kinds of evil terrorist operations. It has been said openly in the media from the highest levels that the purpose of establishing Saddam’s fighters was to attack American targets and American interests. This is known; there is no doubt about it. All this training was directed toward attacking American targets and American Interests.
Saddam reiterated those sentiments in a meeting with some of his soldiers on Jan. 12, 1996. “We all met with Saddam personally. He told us to take revenge on America. [Our] duty was to attack and hit American targets in the Gulf, in the Arab world and all over the world, including Europe and America, long before 9/11. (“The Connection,” ibid).
Khodada said he was sure the Sept. 11 attacks involved Iraqi training because Osama bin Laden was not capable of such a high-level operation. ”These kind of attacks must be, and have to be, organized by a capable state, such as Iraq,” he said. ”Even the grouping; those groups were divided into 5-6 people in the group. How about the training on planes? Some of these groups were taken and trained to drive airplanes at the School of Aviation, north of Baghdad…. Everything coincides with what’s happening.”
The NRO: The 9/11 Connection
The Iraq Connection: Saddam Controlled the Camp
Iraq’s Ties with Al Qaeda Terrorists
Salman Pak Link and Interview with Sabah Khodada
Saddam’s Terror Ties – Iraq-war critics ignore ample evidence.
Just a Wednesday
Today’s dose of NIF – News, Interesting & Funny, Wednesday style.
I love how you always back up things with hard facts. Yet the lefties will still come around and whine for the enemy.
Well documented and hard to dispute. Somebody probably will disagree, though.
“19 bombers’ Iraq connection” from Cao’s Blog
Over at Cao’s Blog there is a post up called: 19 bombers’ Iraq connection
Facts be damned… there was no tie between Al Qaeda and Iraq!
Excellent post.
…
Keep hammering at the liberals with facts. They really hate that.
Dude, there was no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda or 9/11… I know cause I saw it on CNN, they said it didnt happen!
Also, the DNC site told me Bush lied about it all, and MoveON.org said Bush is poopie!:twisted:
Nice job Cao, too bad it will fall on deaf ears to the left.
Facts – gee, how novel. I come to Cao when I want facts: pictures, audio, links.
Now I visit enemy camps and I see no such things. They want to wail and whine, expect us to show compassion to those that hate us – it’s a matter of free speech they tell us. They expect me to feel guilty that I might profile certain people as possibly hating American and Americans.
Do I feel guilty? NOT! I have facts and truth on my side – and again, Cao proves that!
Keep hammering at Lefties with facts?
Okay – let’s keep them happy
I’m sure people would take the time to refute this nonsense if your source was from a reputable news source and not a completely biased online propaganda machine like WorldNetDaily.
Yeah, Derek, maybe we can get Michael Moore to do a “documentary”.
I know Cao – and there’s no cure when it comes to Lefties.
Geez. A member of Sadam’s republican guard allegedly says that Sadam is the “father or grandfather of all terrorists” and you take that to be proof. Ummm…. ignoring that it’s genealogically impossible, it also sounds much more like a fabrication that anything. I HIGHLY doubt that he’d have used the word “terrorist” in any language. That’s not how they see these people, remember. You’re clutching at straws, just like all the other apologists for Bush’s war crimes.
Also, looking through your list of suspected 911 bombers and their residences, I’d have been more inclined to title this post: 19 BOMBERS US CONNECTION. Last time I checked Phoenix ain’t in Iraq.
You picked out one little thing. Did you read the rest of it? Doesn’t seem like it. You’re the one who’s grasping at straws,
Captain Sabah Khodad worked at Salman Pak in 1994-5. In an interview with The Observer, he echoed Zeinab’s claims: ‘The foreigners’ training includes assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking. They were strictly separated from the rest of us. To hijack planes they were taught to use small knives. The method used on 11 September perfectly coincides with the training I saw at the camp. When I saw the twin towers attack, the first thought that came into my head was, “this has been done by graduates of Salman Pak”.’
There are so many facts and evidence that I’m sorry you’re a blind moonbat and can’t see it-or refuse to see it…but I doubt glasses will help.
There’s a vast collection of evidence here.
As the May 8, 2003 New York Post and other news outlets reported, two families sued Saddam Hussein’s Baathist government for the 9/11 attacks that killed their loved ones. Baer (the presiding judge) ruled that Saddam Hussein’s government was complicit in the September 11 attacks and that the Baathist government owed the plaintiffs a judgment of $104 million. So the connection between Saddam’s Iraq and Al Qaeda was proven in court.
But facts never bother leftists…so when does the name calling begin? That’s always what you people resort to when you can’t provide any facts to back up what you’re saying,
You people are so predictable, it’s getting boring. I have never seen one single alternative explanation for the terrorists who committed the 9/11 attacks…(except for the socialists that blame the US for the Pentagon, claiming it was the US government that hit the Pentagon and not terrorists, lol)-All I see is denial that the lovely freedom fighters (the vicious Al Qaeda murderers) couldn’t possibly have been trained by Saddam’s Iraq…and there is no connection between Saddam’s Iraq and Bin Laden/Al Qaeda.
Interestingly, there is this little sound byte from ABC News from 1999. Short memories and mental deficiency seems to prevail with leftists, lol…blinded by their hatred of George Bush. As long as a democrat is in office, you guys have clarity of thought. As soon as a republican is in office, you lose your minds.
I hope it stays this way because you idiots are pretty amusing.
I bow before your superior intellect. Clearly, you are right and I am completely wrong and a raving lunatic for thinking such crazy things.
Translation: you’re not going to see the truth, so I’m not going to bother even trying.
Shame, that. I hope you’re happy that 25,000+ Iraqi citizens have been killed because of people with opinions like yours. I hope you manage to get those blood stains from your hands eventually.
For the record, I’m neither Democrat nor Republican. Those aren’t even political parties in my country.
:sigh:
Arguing isn’t going to change what’s happenned.
I am happy that Saddam is no longer killing the kurds with chemicals and that the chemical genocide and mass graves has stopped. Talk about truth–I never hear with all your laments about “freedom fighters” about the innocent people Saddam tortured and killed over 35 years. This is an obvious example of someone who’s “cherry picking” his facts and figures. SHAME ON YOU.
It’s laughable in a way because –there’s too much evidence–there’s too much TRUTH that indicates the opposite of what you’re trying to lead me to believe. You know what it’s called? It’s called-PROPAGANDA.
The number of deaths in Iraq has gone down by 87% if you compare during Saddam’s reign and after we went in to liberate them. Iraqis aren’t dying now–foreign fighters are dying–and some civilians whom the fighters don’t even care two squats about. They are sick cowards who surround themselves with women and children, and we will DESTROY THEM.
Yes, I can obtain statistics, too, you senile leftard.
You’re not only grey you’re obviously suffering from some brain-related problems having to do with age–like alzheimers, for example. There is proof that we did the right thing–the regular normal Iraqi on the street is a testament to that-my son who is in Iraq right now- talks about how the Iraqis are glad we are there and don’t want us to leave–but you guys don’t care about the Iraqis. This isn’t about the Iraqis for you–this isn’t about American freedom for you–this is about fighting a system that you hate. A system that I love that I am willing to defend. So I could give a **** about what you have to say and you’re right, I don’t listen to commie propaganda.
So talk til you’re blue in the face, I DON’T CARE! Is that what bothers you? I don’t care? That I’m not listening to your hatred against the president, your constant BDS? (Bush Derangement Syndrome)?
History will bear out that we did the right thing–if we remain a free nation. In the meantime I’ll be fighting your ilk vigorously, and I’m going to turn up the volume and keep getting more vocal…and I’m going to start physically demonstrating against you moonbats. And I have family–and family who’s former military–that will help me do it.
Supporting the troops, as jcrue says–is opposing anyone who is causing more soldiers’ deaths in Iraq. That is all those who celebrate soldiers’ deaths, who call them murderers, and send money to the terrorists, or Hezbollah, or Hamas, or CAIR or any of the other terrorist organizations who want the American way of life to be wiped off the face of the earth and the flag with their moongod to be flying over the whitehouse.
Greywulf — thought I recognized that moniker, “Robin Stacey” from Great Britain — you’re probably still pissed of at PM Blair, aren’t you?
I hear your hatred and pity you, really I do.
Look to history and think hard about what’s happenned in the past, and please, please learn from it. In the 1930s in Germany, people just like you were talking in exactly the same terms about Hitler and pride in Germany, and how anyone who opposed it was a “Jew”, or in some way “not German”. To dare to speak out was to be accused of being somehow less than human (a moonbat, maybe?), of not being patriotic. Look what happenned there. Bush has fermented up just the same hatred-disguised-as-patriotism in his followers. That’s wrong, and it’s a lie to call it patriotism at all.
The US is a great country. I’m not knocking the US at all. George Bush is NOT the US. He’s a power hungry, evil, twisted megalomaniac who’s used 9/11 for his own financial and political gains. That’s evil of the lowest degree, and I can’t understand how any intelligent US citizen can allow their flag to be sullied by such a man.
Yes, Sadam was an evil dictator. Look around you, there’s a lot of them around. Power begats power begats evil and corruption. It’s how it is, and I agree, it does need to be stopped. It’s a sad irony that both Sadam and Bin Laden were helped into power by the US in the first place. You really should be ashamed for the evil that’s been done in the name of your country by it’s supposed leaders.
But here’s the thing. Evil cannot be removed by doing evil back. Killing 25,000 people is murder, pure and simple. Using depleted Uranium warheads that will contaminate the region for millions of years is evil (and against the Geneva convention, as it happens). Holding people without trial or any given just cause is also against the Geneva contention. Invading not one, but two countries unlawfully and without sanction from the UN (toothless gibs that there are, but anyway) is wrong. Which of these war crimes do you think Bush isn’t guilty of? You’re the one quoting “facts”. These are beyond doubt.
Look at Bush’s business interests. Look at the defense contractors who are active in Iraq. Look at the links between Bush’s family and Saudi Arabia, and the network of oil companies that are profitting hugely for this entire sorry chirade.
If Bush were a Good Man, he wouldn’t be making a penny from this war. As it is, he’s making billions.
I respect your opinion; I respect your blog and your right to say whatever you want on it. It’s a shame you’re having to resort to name calling and childish taunts to try to “prove” your points……..
I have learned from the past and Germany in the ’30’s. Bush doesn’t represent Fascism–that’s what Saddam represented. That’s why he carried a copy of Mein Kampf in his back pocket and copied the Final Solution–in his Anfal Campaign. The Baathists, incidentally were Iraq’s socialist party and the Nazis were Germany’s socialist party. Don’t see any connection there? Oh yeah. I forgot. To you, the US is the enemy.
I know you guys don’t want to look at history and compare it to what we did in Germany, but take a look at how Hitler embraced Islam and persecuted the Christian churches and the Jews. Saddam did the same thing, and he started talking the jihadi rhetoric (partly because he had teamed up with Bin Laden). We fought Hitler, we didn’t support him. Well the leftists did, but shouldn’t that be the point?
Amatzia Baram, currently a scholar at the US Institute for Peace, is perhaps the world’s greatest authority on Saddam Hussein. He has detailed Saddam’s transformation in dozens of articles and books, including an analysis published in the December 2000 issue of the Middle East Review of International Affairs.
Baram notes that Saddam undertook a wide-ranging public relations campaign to cast himself as an Islamic holy warrior. He frequently invoked past Islamic battles and rallied Muslims to his cause by claiming that he would return the Islamic world to glory by taking the battle to the Western infidels.
We fought Nazism/Fascism in the ’30’s, we are still doing it today. There is little difference. The leftists today are opposing our moves in Iraq the same way as they did when we were going into Germany.
Joe Kennedy talked to FDR and tried to tell him that Hitler had it in the bag and that it was going to cost too many American lives. Reminds me of how the leftists were forcasting or predicting all kinds of American losses if we went in to liberate the Iraqi people. Interesting; that never materialized. Take a good look at what happened there–that’s recent history, you should be able to look at that with less myopia.
The coalition troops had relatively simple and straightforward goals; remove Saddam Hussein from power, eliminate the threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, and shut down Baghdad’s support for terrorism. To achieve these ends, approximately 170,000 US and British soldiers, airmen, sailors, and Marines first had to beat Saddam’s 485,000 strong military. The coalition accomplished all this in a lightning swift campaign that began on 20 March and culminated in the fall of Baghdad on 10-April and the capture of Tikrit three days later.
It was an extraordinary military operation and extremely successful. Never before had any military force gone so far, so fast, with so few casualties–to either side–as in this campaign. No other armed forces but ours could have accomplished what these young Americans achieved.
The warriors whose courage, stamina and military prowess had defied the predictions found themselves in a new role; peacemakers. In many respects it’s a more difficult task than simply fighting. Today our troops are charged with the responsibility of bringing a democracy to people who have known only tyranny all of their lives. While rebuilding the decrepit infrastructure, our troops must also be on guard against the former Baathists–who are intent on preventing real democracy from taking root. They also have to fight heavily armed criminals who were released from Saddam’s prisons shortly before hostilities commenced in March 2003. And most dangerous–they must defend against the radical Islamic Jihadists–members of Al Qaeda–or Al Qaeda recruits–who have entered Iraq from neighboring countries intent on killing themselves in an effort to kill any “westerner”, be it Christian or Jew.
I’m sorry, but I don’t fall for your stupid rhetoric it simply doesn’t pass muster. What contractors in Iraq are connected with Bush’s business interests? What specifically are you referring to?
The Soviet Union appears the greatest megamurderer of all, apparently killing near 61,000,000 people. Stalin himself is responsible for almost 43,000,000 of these. Most of the deaths, perhaps around 39,000,000 are due to lethal forced labor in gulag and transit thereto. Communist China up to 1987, but mainly from 1949 through the cultural revolution, which alone may have seen over 1,000,000 murdered, is the second worst megamurderer. Then there are the lesser megamurderers, such as North Korea and Tito’s Yugoslavia.
Obviously the population that is available to kill will make a big difference in the total democide, and thus the annual percentage rate of democide is revealing. By far, the most deadly of all communist countries and, indeed, in this century by far, has been Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot and his crew likely killed some 2,000,000 Cambodians from April 1975 through December 1978 out of a population of around 7,000,000. This is an annual rate of over 8 percent of the population murdered, or odds of an average Cambodian surviving Pol Pot’s rule of slightly over just over 2 to 1.
In sum the communists have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century’s international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone–one communist country– well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.
Cao, thank you for taking time to reply to my post. I appreciate good dialogue, and enjoy a good discussion with people from the other side for the fence
First, just to clarify one thing. I’m not “leftist”, “communist”, “rightist”, “middleist” or anything else “-ist”. I’m me, with open eyes and an opinion all of my own.
I can’t argue with the figures you’ve quoted about Stalin or Communist China. I guess those numbers are as good any any. We’ll never know for sure just how many countless millions were killed there. History has shown their evil for what it is. I’m sure that both in China and during Stalin’s reign, there were intelligent people just like you thhough who stood up for the leadership, defended what they were doing and closed their ears to what was really hapenning.
One question did occur to me after reading your comment that I’d love to hear an answer for. How many people just Bush need to kill before he can be labelled “evil”. One? Ten? A thousand? A Million? There’s around 25,000 dead civilians in Iraq because of Bush already. Is that evil enough? Nope?
On the subject of numbers, the Korean War claimed 2.8 million lives. A conservative estimate is that the Veitman War claimed 1.1 million lives.
Where does that put the US on the “evilness” scale?
On to the next thing…..
George W. Bush and his family’s links to the “contractors” in Iraq are very well documented. Can you say Halliburton?
“On March 25, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers awarded Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root the main contract to fight oil well fires and reconstruct oil fields in Iraq. The open-ended contract, which has no specified time or dollar limit, was given to the company without a bidding process. KBR has already announced it will subcontract the actual firefighting operations to Boots & Coots International Well Control Inc. and Wild Well Control Inc., both based in Houston.”
This page sums it up pretty well, I think.
Anyways. I’m not going to change your mind, you’re not going to change mine. But thank you for sharing and taking time to reply again. I respect and applaud your passion.
It’s so interesting to me that you can’t see the rhetoric you talk is the same as that of radical leftists who have a well-documented history of connections with CPUSA and the World Workers Party. However well-meaning your intentions, the results of your actions serve the same anti-american purposes so let’s just get real and throw away the pretenses, shall we?
If you don’t believe me, go to the websites of organizations such as Code Pink, International ANSWER, Veterans for Peace, all organizations which I can prove are connected to the extreme left.
Halliburton, incidentally, was supposedly an organization that Cheney was financially benefiting from, not Bush. And Cheney’s financial benefits are nonexistent-as can be seen here.
As for the numbers of people who are dying in Iraq, you have to be kidding. Those numbers are way off, and you conveniently left out the numbers of innocents that were killed in Vietnam, for example–after we withdrew and “surrendered”. Between 2 and 3 million Indo Chinese were murdered by the communists and I find it very telling that you demonize how many people are killed in a just war; rather than the innocents that are killed at the hands of communists. As I recalled in my last comment,
What’s even more interesting is this:
Revolutionary War 10,623
War of 1812 6,765
Mexican War 17,435
Civil War 1,940,454
Spanish American War 4,108
WWI 320,710
WWII 1,078,162
Korean War 136,935
Vietnam War 211,471
Gulf War 760
War in Iraq 1800 over 3 years
These statistics include troops killed in action or dead of wounds. Other includes deaths from disease, privation, and accidents, and includes losses among prisoners of war.
What’s telling to me is that you don’t seem to believe there’s any just cause–even defending yourself after a domestic attack–no just cause to go to war. I suppose you don’t even realize that there are people out there who are bent on our destruction. And I suppose Bin Laden’s rhetoric doesn’t disturb you in the least. Strange. For someone who “speaks for himself” what you’re saying right there is merely an echo of what the peace protesters say.
Let’s see. 600 dead per year. That’s less than those who are killed in SUV accidents (4,666 in 2004) in a year…or die from breast cancer (40,200 in 2001), yet–to leftists (which is what you sound like)–you ignore the deaths at the hands of despots like Saddam Hussein–who killed over 1/2 million of his own people over 35 years in the torture chambers and human shredders, prisons and chemicals campaigns–many of whom are still being found in mass graves sprinkled all over Iraq–but you object to our bringing the fight to their soil as though you don’t even acknowledge that there is a terrorist threat.
It’s kind of like Cindy Sheehan saying Bush killed her son, rather than the Saddam-loving terrorists who actually did the deed.
You people think that giving up the fight is going to stop them?
What I also find amusing is that you quote from an organization “Voices of the Wilderness”, which you can read about here. Hardly a “centrist” organization, since the story of Voices is one of a simplistic utopian vision of peace being applied to an intractable humanitarian and political catastrophe. This may be a trait that cuts across the entire peace movement, but Voices has its own unique characteristics, which reflect its distinct pedigree within the larger peace movement. Voices was formed from the remnants of what has been dubbed the “Catholic Ultra-resistance,”[1]—those Catholic radicals centered on the Catholic Worker movement and the personalities of Dorothy Day, Thomas Merton, and, especially, the radical priests Daniel and Philip Berrigan. Almost without exception, the founding members of Voices were drawn from the Catholic Worker movement, which has always seen U.S. government’s foreign—as well as many domestic—policies as violent, and therefore, morally unacceptable.
The Catholic Worker movement developed a doctrine of nonviolent resistance, and its actions drew national attention during the Vietnam war. The Berrigan brothers became famous by stretching the meaning of nonviolence in their antiwar actions. In 1968, they “nonviolently” entered a draft board office in Catonsville, Maryland, and used homemade napalm to burn the files of recent inductees mobilized for the Vietnam war. This action was seen as a way to end (or at least ******) the war-making process; because it was against the war, it was seen as inherently nonviolent. The Berrigans performed this and other acts that extended Gandhi’s definitions of nonviolence on the basis of their own belief that Catholic ethics summoned them to perform radical actions for peace.
[1] Francine du Plessix Gray, quoted in J. Justin Gustainis, American Rhetoric and the Vietnam War (Westport: Praeger, 1993), p. 67.
Oh please.
You really are completely clueless aren’t you?
Clueless would be you, Greywulf. Is that the best you can do in response? I’m disappointed.
You’re a peacenik who doesn’t believe that freedom is worth dying for.
You measure the sacrifice in terms of dollars and cents and are repeating the mantras of the extreme left, not even recognizing a terrorist threat. How’s that any different than the Stalinist Michael Moore (who in Fahrenheit 9/11 said “there is no terrorist threat” and this is a war for oil and Halliburton)?
Are you old enough to remember Churchill’s “never surrender”? That is where it’s at in the War on Terror.
Share with me how you’re an “independent thinker”, I’m sitting on the edge of my seat, totally enthralled. You talk the same rhetoric yet somehow you’re magically an “independent thinker” and not a leftist?
Give me a break.
Leftie Communists can only think with the left side of their brain cell.
I think you’d better sit down and breath deeply because I’m going to tell you something shocking.
Ready? ok.
There is no good vs. evil. There is no black hats vs. white hats. There is no us vs. the evil empire. This isn’t TV land or a movie show. There is no communist vs. democracy (oh, how wonderfully retro 1950s of you. Give me a break!).
This is evil vs. evil. Wrong vs. wrong. Last time I checked, two negatives don’t make a positive and somehow I don’t think they ever will.
The bottom line is this; in the time it’s taken you to read this, another mother’s son has been killed in Iraq. Imagine if that were your son or daughter. These are real lives that are being destroyed for nothing more than cash and politics.
I happen to think that freedom is worth dying for. But this war isn’t about freedom, is about profit, and I certainly don’t think that this is worth killing innocent men, women and children for. This is wrong, wrong, wrong.
In Christian terms (given that Bush is supposedly a Christian man) I see three commandments being broken here – killing, coveting your neighbour’s possessions (in this case, oil), and worshipping a false idol (money, the curse of US capitalism as a whole). Given that Clinton committed just the one (adultery) and so did Nixon (using the Lord’s name in vain), I reckon that’s something of a record for a US president.
I’ll say it again as obviously your skull is far too thick for there to be any chance of an idea getting in. I’m not a communist, or a leftist or an anything-ist. Communism is a badly flawed political system. History and countless lost lives has shown that. I’m pretty darned sure though that US-style so-called democracy is every bit as flawed and corrupt as well.
If you have to label me something, file me under “don’t vote or a government might get in”.
You’re just resorting to juvenille name calling. Cheap shots. I expected better.
But you’re missing my point, my man. You’re talking the same rhetoric as the communists so intent has nothing to do with it. It’s what you’re accomplishing by talking that way…you know, “Halliburton” and “blood for oil”, that stuff.
I’m sorry you can’t see it, but there IS evil in the world. This is NOT a matter of EVIL against EVIL. Someone who wants to wipe out your way of life is what? To someone who believes in moral relativism, his way is just as “right” as your way. So does that mean that you will captitulate when a sword is hanging over your neck? Or would you fight for your life and your family and your wife and daughter? What you’re saying is sickening to me.
This is (whether you believe it or admit it or not) a matter of our very survival. The fact that you’re in denial over it, I can’t help that.
Now if it’s them or us–and that’s our choice–then who do you think it should be? Should we just give up and let them take over and let them run their flag with the moongod in it over the Whitehouse? Because you’re too yellow or weak in the stomach to continue the fight? Or should we fight it tooth and nail?
I’m for fighting it tooth and nail.
Since the jihadis don’t have a country and don’t wear a uniform, it’s not so cut and dry…but we are winning in Iraq. It’s people who talk like you–who parrot the communist rhetoric that calls Bush a terrorist, says we’re fighting for oil, and evil Imperialism-even goes so far as to call our boys in uniform “murderers”–who believes that American Corporations and not the Iraqi people are gaining from all this–that’s going to cause us to lose at home. The same exact thing happened during the days of Vietnam, and it’s exactly what the terrorists are hoping for and have been talking about on the jihadi message boards.
They’re praying that the anti-war movement will help them succeed just like they helped the communists succeed in Vietnam. And afterwards a bloodbath will occur just like it did in Vietnam. Only it will start happening in America’s streets.
I agree. There is evil in the world. Lots of it too, regardless of whichever colour it’s painted politically.
My point is that the US are not the good guys. Neither are we folks in the UK, I’m ashamed to say. I’m embarassed for what the UK government has supposedly done in my name. Democracy says that in theory I have a voice in the matter (at least, more than I would under communism
). In reality, I have no voice or choice at all in what this government does. Democracy is a myth.
Now, I’m not saying Sadam is the good guy either. His evil and corruption is well documented. That fact that he was put into power and used weapons supplied by the US (as was Bin Laden) doesn’t really strengthen the US’s claim for the white hat in this now, does it.
Yes, it is a fight against the US from one point of view. You live in a country that’s the biggest over-abuser of the planet, consume 80% of the world’s resources while 50% of the world population starve to death and still expect to be treated like the good guys.
c’mon, what do you expect?
In Christian terms (given that Bush is supposedly a Christian man) I see three commandments being broken here – killing, coveting your neighbour’s possessions (in this case, oil), and worshipping a false idol (money, the curse of US capitalism as a whole).
—————————————-
The commandment is against murder. American forces do not deliberately target civilians unlike the “minute men of Iraq” & Palestinian “martyrs”. Our troops defend innocent civilians; there is no sin in that.
How exactly are we coveting Iraq’s oil? If all we wanted was Iraq’s oil, we would have turned Iraq into a colony, & gas would be dirt-cheap.
Worshipping money, “the curse of US capitalism as a whole”-that’s definitely Communist rhetoric. I don’t know if you realize that.
You also said, there is no good v evil: in the real world, there is good & evil. And the only way to deal with evil is to fight it. Evil doesn’t go away just because you ignore it. Look at how affective looking the other was it was with Hitler & Imperial Japan.
War isn’t great, it’s not fun, but sometimes it is nessacary.
I’m going to say something about that Capitalism statement which couldn’t be further from the truth.
In economics, this covenant structure is as follows:
1. Ownership
2. Stewardship
3. Law
4. Profit and Loss
5. Economic Growth or Contraction
Applying these five principles, we get this:
1. God Owns the World
2. Man is a Steward
3. Theft Is Immoral
4. Scarcity Is God’s Curse
5. Covenant-Keepers Inherit in History
Capitalism is not ungodly, of course. It is the economic system that results from following God’s commandments not to steal or to lie. If I cannot steal, than the only way I can acquire goods or money is if I produce something that somebody else wants and is willing to trade with me for voluntarily. If I cannot lie, then I cannot defraud my trading partner about the quality or quantity of the goods or services I am offering to trade.
Self-interest is not sinful, of course, which is why God commands us to love others as we love ourselves. It is capitalism’s tendency to make men provide for their neighbors in order to advance their own self-interest that led Adam Smith, considered the father of economics, to remark that capitalism leads men to promote the welfare of society “as if led by and invisible hand”:
…every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was no part of it. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good.
God’s commandments against stealing and lying – which create capitalism – limit but do not eliminate greed. This is why God gave us the 10th commandment against covetousness. But capitalism does limit greed in two ways:
First, capitalism prevents a greedy person from taking more from somebody else than he can acquire by peaceful, honest, voluntary trade.
Second, capitalism may actually induce a greedy person to give something away, not because he loves or cares about the person he gives to but to acquire a good reputation which will make future trades more likely. We even have a word for this idea in the language of capitalism, it is called “goodwill”.
A greedy person always struggles with Proverbs 11:24, which says “There is that scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty.” Capitalism provides incentives to give, but it does not compel giving. That still requires a loving heart.
To overcome greed, one requires a self-interest enlightened by Biblical truth. God tells us that we are made in His image. This means that we are made to love others as well as ourselves. And this in turn means that we cannot be truly happy unless we give some of what God has given us to those less fortunate than ourselves. Even non-Christians understand this because God has written the law on the hearts of all men.
Now lets turn to communism. There are many ways to prove that communism does not work as a national economic system – besides just reading the newspaper – but let’s use the problem of greed that seemed to worry our liberal friend so much.
There is one situation in which the Bible tells us that communism works, it occurs in Acts 4:32-35:
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
The key to understanding when communism works is to recognize that those who have the power to distribute goods must love the others for whom they act sacrificially. This is the type of love that Christ commanded Christians to have both within their church families and their natural families. See John 13:34-35; Ephesians 5:24-25.
A second requirement is that property donated to the common store not be taken by force, but rather be donated voluntarily. This requirement appears in Acts 5:1-13, in the story of Ananias and Sapphira.
We are all communists within our families. The father, as the spiritual head, has the authority to distribute property as the family members have need, and the responsibility to teach his family to give of what they have in love for the benefit of other family members. But even within a family, the father does not have an absolute right to expropriate a child, and what right he does have is extinguished completely once the child reaches his majority and undertakes his own support. The duty of loving sacrificially within a family, however, remains in effect for life.
The two requirements for communism to work are never met when communism is implemented as the economic system for a nation. First, communist governments never rely on their citizens to donate property voluntarily – they take it at the point of a gun. Second, they never distribute property according to the needs of their citizens.
Two problems prevent communist governments from distributing property to meet the needs of their citizens. The first is greed. In a communist system, there is no incentive to give anything you have or control away. Just the opposite, the way you acquire control over goods or services is not by inducing others to trade with you voluntarily but by pleasing those in power, so you can acquire more power yourself. Communism actually provides an incentive for people to be greedy – so that they have more power. It is possible to demonstrate that communist economic sytems are based on covetousness by modeling a communist system with game theory and abstract calculus.
The second problem is just as important. Communist governments have no practical way to determine what the needs of their citizens are. The real problem of economics is a problem of distributed information. Each individual knows best what he can produce and what he wants to consume. Under capitalism, this distributed information is captured in the price system, by which people auction their labor and capital and bid on resources, goods, and services. But under communism there is no price system, because there are no markets. As a result, the knowledge that each individual possesses never makes it into the central committee’s five-year plan.
It is interesting to note that once the Soviet Union disintegrated we were able to find out what the distribution of wealth was across their society. To everybody’s surprise, it was no different than under capitalism. The top few percent had most of the wealth. The difference was the size of the pie – the amount of economic production or what we call GDP, gross domestic product.
Because capitalism gives incentives for people to produce and captures the distributed information that each individual possesses, capitalism produces a much larger quantity of goods and services for people to consume. Even though the poor still have a small relative share of the total production, because production is much greater under capitalism the absolute share the poor acquire would make them the equal of the middle classes under commuism.
The fact that the poor receive less under a communist national economic system confirms its sinfulness. Not only does national communism begin with sin – because it begins with stealing and provides no means to ensure that those who wield the power to distribute goods love sacrificially those for whom they act – but also it ends with sin, by oppressing the poor and giving greedy men an incentive to aggrandize arbitrary power to themselves.
To sum up, the difference between capitalism and communism as national economic systems is the size of the pie and how you get a bigger piece of it. In capitalism the pie is much bigger, and you make your piece bigger by producing something that others want to trade for. In communism, the pie is much smaller, and you make your piece bigger by pleasing those who have a bigger piece than you do, whether or not you produce anything that truly benefits anybody else.
One last thing we should say about communism within church families. Neither Paul nor the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) taught or required communism within churches. It seemed to arise spontaneously in Jersusalen as a result of the unique time and circumstances within that church.
In Jerusalem, communism was adopted during a time of great upheaval, change, and persecution. Thousands were coming to the church, and the Gospel was being confirmed with signs and wonders. People were leaving homes and jobs, sometimes coming from foreign lands as with those who joined the church at Pentecost. Nevertheless, it was the church at Jerusalem that always found itself without a surplus, dependent on the churches in which communism was not practiced. The Pilgrims learned the importance of the incentives provided by the free market system when, after their first year in the New World, they threw out the communist model and adopted private property.
Perhaps the reason that liberals stumble at communism is that, because they don’t know Christ, they do not have the Holy Spirit to teach them how to rightly divide scripture. They see a system that arises from the rules God has commanded for families and make the mistake of thinking it can be transplanted to government. They discount man’s sinful nature. After all, if man was sinful, he really would need a Savior! This liberals can never admit.
This is why the only way to defeat liberalism is to be available to the Holy Spirit to bring the lost to Christ.
greywulf, (BTW, wolves are nobl;e animals so it is ironic that you take that name), since you do consider it evilVevil, may I ask which evil is going to give you the chance to pursue your choice of life?
Capitalism and the Freedom to use your natural abilities and talents?
Or Islam that demands your adherence or subjugation?
I make a careful distinction here. US troops are just doing their jobs and following orders. They are soldiers. It’s their job to kill, or to be killed. I wouldn’t call them murderers for a second though. They’re just doing what they are told to do, and they have my respect for that.
The true killer is the one who orders them to carry out acts that are against human rights, the one who put them there in the first place for highly questionable reasons.
Yups. You said it and got the nail right on the head there. Gas here in Europe is around $6 a gallon. Gas in the US IS dirt cheap. That’s why you use so much in your huge SUVs without a care in the world
And as for “Communist rhetoric” I really wouldn’t know, nor care. Ask yourself this – if your house was burning (and your family was safe, or course), would you reach for your bible or your wallet? Now tell me who you worship.
Exactly. That’s why I’m speaking out
As I’ve said before, a lot of people supported Hitler in the 1930s and covered their ears and did nothing too.
Well then, Bush isn’t a dictator, you’ll have to blame Congress who voted for the war! But it’s much simpler to blame Bush, isn’t it? You’d have to actually THINK in order to figure out how to blame Congress, and that’s contrary to what all the leftists are crying about, I’m sure you get a pat on the back for agreeing with them on the Bushitler meme.
First, Tsunami relief.
SPD Generosity and follow through
Republican generosity and follow through
French generosity and follow through
I don’t even see France here.
These are mostly muslim people who hate the US and wear Bin Laden T-shirts. Yet, we’re the only country with the air support and the resources (military) to help them out.
The United States’ official foreign aid figure last year was $15 billion.
This figure leaves out two key factors. The U.S. spending for defense that provides security for all the Western democracies, plus Japan, Korea and dozens of nations. Defense consumes 4 percent of U.S. GDP. In the Cold War, it was 9 percent under Ike and 6 percent under Reagan. Then, there is the private giving of Americans, who are the most charitable people on earth. Perhaps 10 percent of the $240 billion that Americans annually give to charity goes abroad.
And looking back over the 20th century, the United States has a pretty good record. In two world wars, Korea and Vietnam, America bled profusely for the freedom of others. We invented foreign aid with the Marshall Plan. We midwifed the United Nations, the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and its sister banks that contribute billions to foreign nations every year. We opened our markets to the world, beginning with the ravaged nations of Europe and Asia after World War II, at great cost to our own workers. Wherever disaster occurs, as in Asia, Americans are usually there first with the most to give.
In response to Third World poverty, the U.S. government has provided over $321 billion in assistance since World War II.[1] As this figure indicates, foreign aid is politically popular. Besides its humanitarian supporters, many special interest groups lobby for foreign aid. For example, American farmers back food assistance because such programs help eliminate politically embarrassing food surpluses caused by agricultural subsidies.[2]
While foreign aid is a political success, it is an economic and social failure. By increasing government power, destroying economic incentives, promoting unprofitable enterprises, and subsidizing misguided policies, foreign aid increases Third World poverty.
Americans also pay up to 35 percent of their earned income to the U.S. government and 5 percent to 10 percent to the state in income or sales taxes. Add to that Social Security, Medicare and property taxes, and some Americans pay half their income in taxes. Yet, they remain the most generous people on earth in annual giving to churches and charities.
What does the United Nations contribute? And the answer is … nothing. For the United Nations creates no wealth and has nothing to contribute, other than what member nations provide it. And the most generous of those nations – which pays a fourth of all U.N. dues and a third of all peacekeeping costs– is the United States of America.
FDR warned that welfare was “a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit.” Just as it bred dependency, resentment and ingratitude among recipients in America, and moral arrogance in its smug dispensers, the same holds true in the international realm.
I forget what other point I was going to make…I have some laundry to do and will be back to this later.
#1 Doug Bandow, “The U.S. Role in Promoting Third World Development,” in Doug Bandow, ed., U.S. Aid to the Developing World: A Free Market Agenda (Washington: The Heritage Foundation, 1985), p. ix.
#2 Daniel A. Sumner and Edward W. Erickson, “The Theory and Practice of Development Aid” in Bandow, op. cit., p. 57.
@Kender. Wolves are indeed noble beasts. We’re also caring, loving, supporting and take only what we need.
Given only the two choices you’ve presented (Islam or Capitalism – interesting that you seem to think they’re mutually exclusive, btw. My Islamic business-owning friends will be highly amused) I would indeed pick Capitalism for the simple reason that I have difficulty accepting the tennets of any faith right now for purely personal reasons. That’s my choice and I’m happy to be able to live in a country where I am free to make that choice. That changes nothing though. The US conflict in Iraq has nothing to do with religion.
Cao, I agree that’s it is incorrect to solely blame Bush. Congress does indeed have a lot to answer for over this sorry mess. But, as the saying goes, the buck stops with the President.
Oh, and remember that Hitler was voted in by a democrary too.
Greywulf, gas in Europe is more expensive thanks to the higher taxes. The price of oil is the price of oil for everyone.
If you want gas in Europe to be the same price as it is in the US, elect politicians who will cut taxes. We have nothing to do with that
Really
You’ve definitely crossed over the parallel divide with the Bushitler meme.
The similarities between them are few and far between. It’s also the socialists/communists who like to bang on that drum as if it means anything, including Prescott Bush’s supposed connection with Nazis as though W is at fault for his grandfather’s one share of the Bank that Germany had money in–before the Nazis.
Bush’s party isn’t the National Socialist Party. To my knowledge he hasn’t embraced Islam like Hitler did with the Muslim Brotherhood. He is a Christian, not a pagan like Hitler was–and if you recall, Hitler persecuted the Christian churches in Germany during the ’30’s because he felt it was an extension of Judaism and should be destroyed. Need I go on?
Bush doesn’t repeatedly talk about the killing of Jews to “free Palestine”…he actually keeps talking about Israel as one of our greatest allies.
You’re a goofball, I’ve concluded, but it was fun. Case closed. Everyone else is invited to get their shots in before I close this post for any more comments.
Hitler was “voted” in to power. But any resemblance of a democracy was only that, a resemblance. Once again I find a reference to Bush = Hitler. Nice.
Shame, I was enjoying the debate. Thank you for your time, Cao
Greywulf,
Anybody that asks people to go over to the Iraqi Body Count website is certifiable. Too bad the Iraqi Body Count guys did not give a **** enough about the “poor widdle Iwakis” until after the coalition invaded and kept a running tally of Saddam’s body count. Good job. You’ve convinced me… that supporting the effort in Iraq is a good thing…
I am sitting. On baited breath.
Yep.
Great.
Really. This isn’t some sort of fantasy world. Never would of thunk it. And the no good vs. evil bit… how so.. very moral relativist of you.
Last time I check what was happening in Iraq was a right meeting a wrong. But if freeing a people from an
evilregime (oops… there is that evil moniker… better not use such judgemental labels..) how about genocidal maniacal ruler instead? Sounds good to me.The bottom line is this; in the time it’s taken you to read this, another murdering terrorist ******* has died at the hands of an coalition soldiers hands. Imagine if that terrorist were free to blow up you son or daughter. The people who call for the retreat of coalition forces are doing so for nothing more than cash and politics.
… except in this instance.
I love it. The almighty $$$ (or pound). I think it would be interesting to see how much American cash poured into rebuilding Europe after WW II. I bet a lot. Maybe that war was for profit also?
Thou shalt not MURDER. David killed Goliath in battle. Don’t remember him being BROUGHT UP ON MURDER CHARGES by God.
Coveting Iraqi Oil. Darn it all. And I was wondering why I am paying extraordinary prices for gas here in the states when we were stealing all of that Iraqi oil.
U.S. Capitalism and the false idol? Perhaps you would have been better served to use the entire “Root of All Evil is the Love of Money” instead to fit your communist rhetoric. And I doubt that Clinton committed just one, or Nixon, or Kennedy, or any other of a many of US Presidents. Wasn’t aware we were keeping score on cardinal sins. Bet I can pick a whole slew of foreign rulers who follow no ethics at all….
Really. And I thought all of that U.S Capitalism and $$$ talk meant you were a communist. Because communism isn’t necessarily a political system any more than capitalism is. More of a flawed economic philosophy that can only flourish under a totalitarian regime that forces it citizens to put up with any socialist/communist sickness.
Hmm. Didn’t the US founding fathers write something like “In Order To Form a More Perfect Union” somewhere? Because as far as I have seen, the U.S. system of government has survived much of the corruption faced by other lesser nations.
Ok. Now you are an anarchist. About as equally deplorable as a communist…
You are just spouting out the leftards talking points (war for profit, illegal war, Bushitler murders innocent soldiers in their sleep, etc.). Cheap shots. I expected better. (Ed. Note: No, not really. I got from you what I expect from sheep who follow whatever misguided shepard they have chosen for the moment.)
Greywulf: “The bottom line is this; in the time it’s taken you to read this, another mother’s son has been killed in Iraq.”
That is quite a statement… let’s see, it took me only 1.5 minutes to read that far. Thus, 60/1.5 = 40 deaths an hour = 960 per day = 350,400 per year = 1,400,000 men have been killed since the start of this war. This is Patently wrong and so far out that it really doesn’t deserve any response. NO ONE believes that number.
Greywulf: “In Christian terms (given that Bush is supposedly a Christian man) I see three commandments being broken here – killing, coveting your neighbour’s possessions (in this case, oil), and worshipping a false idol (money, the curse of US capitalism as a whole).” Whoo Boy! This one is also out in left field. Profit? Oh please, that tired meme is so ludicrous as to be just pointless. Oil… yeah? so how come prices are UP? And don’t tell me it’s a complex matter, I know that, but I doubt if you can explain the economics and if you could, you would KNOW that it has nothing to do with Iraq but with increased demand, especially by China and India, weather patterns in the US (the Gulf drilling platforms have been shut down for 48 hours already and that accounts for some half million bbls. of oil a day) wanting your neighbors possessions and worshiping money? Good lord man, are you completely daft? What is your evidence other than Democrat/Liberal/Leftist (and yes, I know that they are not always the same thing) memes?
Greywulf, thou hast no argument worth debating, go findeth thyself something to back up thy statements, or be worried about bearing false witness!
Hitler Was NOT voted in by a democratic movement. He was elected chancellor and SEIZED power afterwards as Fuhrer! Get your history right.
Greywulf — perhaps you stand down now, as it’s not in your best interest to go up against GM Roper!
He’s gone now, I think, SSGT. That was one snake-in-the-grass–particularly the website he links to with the leftist type pictures of Iraqi dead because of the war. Well he’s hiding one of the key things we liberated the Iraqis from ever fearing again.
Mass Graves
Crimes Against Humanity
Iraqi Truth Project
We were burnt as newly-grown plants,
In the current of poisonous winds,
And showed our dreadful wounds,
From one side of the world to the other.
But the unjust eyes of the world
Were never opened truly towards the oppressed.
The world only confined itself to a false regret,
And once again,
We became a target as heaps and heaps of martyrs,
We were the target of poisonous bombardments,
We were the target of destructive bombs,
And we remained the lonely oppressed ones of the world.
We rose from under tons of debris,
And stood up in the lands of poisonous bombings,
And we kept up standing and fighting,
Believe it, you people of tomorrow,
Believe such a history and learn a lesson,
Learn how to fight oppression in this way.*
* From the poem “Khaibar” by Mohammed Reza Abdol-Malakian.
Sergalou * Bergalou * Qara Dagh * Germian * The Valley of the Lesser Zab * The Mountains and Valleys of Shaqlawa and Rawanduz * Bidanan
The Popular Army Camp at Topzawa
The Popular Army Camp at Tikrit
The Prisoners from Bileh and Halabja
The Women’s Prison at Dibs
A Prison Camp for the Elderly
Deaths at Nugra Salman
*The Firing Squads
The Mujamma’a Dumping Operation
The Fate of the Christians and Yezidis
God bless all of those who are still missing to their families after all of this horror and destruction. God bless those families who found their dead and mourn for them. God bless those who witnessed executions and public beheadings, cutting of hands and feet and brandings. Bless those who laid in the streets writhing from chemicals. I pray that Saddam and Chemical Ali will be brought to justice before the world for all that they’ve done to their people; and that relatives, holding pictures or precious momentos of their long lost dead loved ones, will be able to witness it.
And people like Greywulf should be damned to hell for condemning the people/nations who stopped it, particularly George W. Bush.
“But, as the saying goes, the buck stops with the President.”
Ironic isn’t it Greywulf! Our GEORGE, THEN President of these United States of America,allowed GEORGE of England to keep his Royalty (which was real). And today… Our George, now President of these United States of America is making your Queen (ceremonial only) look good?!