Chinese sub pops up in the midst of a US carrier battle group
by Bryan of “Hot Air” – November 10, 2007
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk – a 1,000ft Super-Carrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
This is old, yet current news. The incident happened earlier this year and did get some press coverage.
Diesel boat in the middle of your formation? IN the exercises, it’s green flares and major embarrassment. In real life…well, a few modern torpedoes under the keel of the KITTY HAWK would have been one of our capital assets on the bottom.
We have, since the Clinton presidency, been slicing and dicing away our capability to conduct open ocean ASW (anti-submarine warfare). The ability to conduct this effort is comprised in both men and machines/software.
Proficiency of the operators is an extremely important piece of the puzzle. When we believed there was no sub threat, the training and exercise time declined.
I could go on for pages, seeing as how I did this in exercise and real world operations for a lot of years…
Bottom line: The Chinese are serious about developing a sub threat. We are not serious about maintaining our countering capability and the leadership in the Navy has also been complicit in losing the vision.
Good point xformed. Since the demise of the Soviet Union, there isn’t anybody to really challenge us militarily and I think we’ve started slacking in many areas. I’ve read where the Russians are also penetrating our defenses on sea and in the air. Although our military was decimated under Bill Clinton, we can’t blame him alone as George H. Bush actually started drawing down the forces.
xformed — I was not in the Navy, so I can’t verify/justify if this is “old news”.
You bring up some interesting points; if you’re ex-Navy, I’d like to read more of your actual experiences concerning this subject, up to and including actual exercises you were truly involved in.
Your answers will be reviewed by many of my military peers who can testify they were/are in the capacity of “BTDT”.
SSgt Yatahey;
I have posted a few years worth of such stories on my blog. I was off Libya in 86 and did a multi-part series on that. My job then? On the DESRON Staff that was the force (3 CVBGs) ASW Commander.
BobF;
Yes, Bush 41 did begin the draw down. When Clinton got into office, he accelerated it 3x the speed of the plan, gutting the services, and shifting the money to social programs, rather than eliminating the costs of the DoD structure from the budget.
So, where has some of the “stretched thin-ness” come from? Yep, Clinton. It takes many years to put systems into place in the front lines. Look at the V-22: Over 22 years. When you squash programs in the mid to late 90s, they aren’t here now.
Would it be different if he’d have stuck with 41′s plan? Can’t tell…he didn’t, so all I have to go on is he did it in a big way.
Trust me, I was there.
Clinton slashed the military by about 40% and that is the reason for the base closures under Bush. Bush is getting a bad rap for an agenda that was set up under Clinton.
And that says nothing of the feminization of our mlitary forces, their ‘sensitivity training’, etc.
I think it’s amazing that they’ve done as good a job as they have, all things considered.
I know SF’s success in 2001-2002 during the war in Afghanistan shocked the hell out of the politicos…they didn’t think it could be done.
Let’s see there SSgt Yatahey, what did I do patriotic? Probably compared to you, nothing. All I did was give 26 years of my life, retiring as USAF Senior Master Sergeant (E-8). I was there when George H. Bush started the draw-down of our forces. I was on a SAC flightline when he stood down our nuclear bomber alert force. I was there through the 90′s when Clinton decimated our forces. Matter-of-fact, his signature is on my retirement certificate.
Also, Staff Sergeant, you need to read a little further in your dictionary as you will see another meaning for decimated is “to reduce drastically especially in number”
You want to read about the Clinton military cuts? Here you go:
http://www.afa.org/magazine/July1994/07edit94.asp
http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=644
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/3/29/83831.shtml
As far as the Russians penetrating our defenses:
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2851460.ece
http://www.tldm.org/News9/RussianBombersBuzzAlaska.htm
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Russian_commander:_Tu-160s_penetrate_US_airspace_undetected
You also need to do a bit of checking before you claim people are full of $hit.
How is it that “Bush started drawing down forces”… when Bill Clinton was in office before him and it is well documented how many bases were closed and how many defense cuts were done during Clinton’s time in office. That in it’s self is a flawed statement.
xformed – thanks for the explanation.
HoosierArmyMom;
The plan, after the wall came down and Communism in the Soviet Union collapsed, was to back away from the 660 ship Navy, and I think the 25 Army Divisions, 15 Air Wings, as how could the budget be proposed, straight faced, to continue with those buildups after the “enemy” was defeated? Bush 41′s administration drafted the plan.
Now, when Clinton got in, he sped up the timeline, as I mentioned above, 3x the rate as planned.
Just based on the momentum of the speed (or lack thereof) of government, the actual base closings, as a result of the BRAC Commission (Since the politicos didn’t have the …. to talk straight to the taxpayers) came under Clinton.
The many other issues of putting women to sea, DADT, etc, etc, etc, were Clinton agendas all along, whether we built up or cut back: separate, but connected by the timing, issues.
I also was there on shore duty when the BRAC stuff was going on. I’ll say, in one case, and most likely many more, a serious mistake in the cost savings was made, because, if you got a call for info from BRAC, you had 24 hours (I may be off, might have been 48 – but no more than that) to get the request answered. It was not working hours, it was clocked hours. So…if the call came late Friday night…
Many commands set up BRAC response teams, of senior players (military and civilian) to be called on nights/weekends, if a tasker rolled downhill.
The case I was aware of was caused because the reply was fomulated on a weekend, and many of the people they needed to talk outside the command (such as contractors reps and contractors) to were just not available.
Net result? They canceled a MILCON project that was almost complete. Thought they’d save lots of money, but then no one played the “what if we cancel after the contractor has begun work?” card. Well, the penalties were significant, and then it was a net big loss, not a savings, all for the want of accurate information.
The general impression I got was lots of bad, but “best guess” info flowed to the BRAC meetings and was used for the decisions.
Haste did make for a lot of waste.
The good news: A major command, due to closings already announced was in need of a building in the Norfolk area. The very accidental result was they took the building, and there was room for a new joint command, which also needed a place after being recently stood up. It became a win, but not because it was planned. Of course, some took credit for the ability of others to make lemonade out of the lemons.
SSgt Yatahey, of course I’ve probably never done anything patriotic like you. I only served 26 years, retiring as a USAF Senior Master Sergeant. But then, what do you consider patriotic?
If you read your dictionary just a bit further, you will see another definition for decimated, according to Webster, is: to reduce drastically especially in number b: to cause great destruction or harm to
As far as links go, for some reason when I tried posting them here, my comment wouldn’t post. But, with the new invention of Google, you can type in “russian planes penetrate us air defense” and it will come up with recent information of incursions.
George H. Bush started the drawdown of our forces after Desert Storm. I was on a SAC Flightline when the order came to stand down our nuclear bomber alert force. Our mighty B-52 fleet of over 250 planes has dwindled to around 70.
Xformed, outstanding info thank you for sharing. I now understand much better the “had to be there history” involved, kinda behind the scenes. If you are the same Xformed who contributes to the WideAwakes, I like reading what you write there too. Thank you.
BobF: OH SO YOU WERE TALKING George Herbert Walker Bush! Sorry I misunderstood and thought you meant George W.Bush. Thank you for clearing that up and thank you for your service to our country, all of you.
BobF;
I bet you have some great historical context based on 26 years. Got a blog yet? Got the same guy signing my retirement certificate as you.
HAM (what an abbreviation!): Yep…That’s me over there and you’re welcome.
Senior Master Sergeant BobF — excuse me while I eat a large bowl of crow.
I apologize for my earlier remarks, of which I’ve deleted them — thanks for the links and for your military service!
Billy-Bob Klinton really screwed this nation on closing the numerous bases ( I remember following all of it during the entire time ) — maybe it’s time for the country to screw him and that ugly Kluck he’s married to.
xformes, aren’t we lucky to have that signature on our retirement certificates. I have a close friend, retired CMSgt (E-9), who sent his to the White House after the Lewinski scandle, saying he was ashamed by it. A retired O-6 told me we can get them changed to GW’s signature but I haven’t been able to find any info on doing that. I don’t have a Blog but I post on two friends.
The Urban Grind
The Violence Worker…owned by a fellow USAF Retiree
SSgt Yatahey, no problem sir. I enjoy visiting here and reading the postings and commenting once in a while.
Under Clinton was the only time in my career we were briefed not to “make fun of the president” should he visit our instillation. This was after the Navy folks laughed at him for wearing a flight jacket when he visited a carrier. You got to love those Navy guys for doing that.
Clinton was a draft dodger and he and Hillary have a long history of hating the military.
Just ask Lt. Col. Buzz Patterson.:razz:
BobF — appreciate that, Sir … I sincerely hope that you; xformed; and many more Vets continue to stop by, posting comments and links to interesting stories!
I would’ve loved to have seen those “Anchor-Clankers” making fun of Billy-Bob Klinton wearing a flight jacket on a carrier — too bad they didn’t exercise their “Man Overboard” after about 30 minutes of being underway.
Here’s a 1993 small article from the National Review about Clinton’s visit to the USS Theodore Roosevelt.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n24_v45/ai_14752832
Remember, Hillary didn’t want military personnel in uniform while in the White House.
http://tank.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MGJmN2YzZDg4NmU4OWQxOGI3ZTcwNjQ3NWU0ZmVjZTM
I dread to think if she became Commander-in-Chief. Their was a mass exodus from the military when Bill was elected. I venture many senior NCO’s and officers will drop their retirement papers.
Thanks for the links… they serve as reminders of why we DON’T want the Clintons to get back in the Whitehouse. The way they dis military and also, can we afford to see the Whitehouse “sacked again” after Hillary serves a term? Of course, that would be only if we still have country left after 4 years of her!